Igor, you say that Hardy had a bad year last year but it was preceded by two good years, and then you say that while Cameron will undoubtedly fall off
defensively, we only can account for what we're replacing from last year. You can't have it both ways. Collectively, Cameron and JJ couldn't steal
for the rest of their careers more bases than Gomez will undoubtedly put up next year alone.
0 Kudo
JJ Hardy to Twins for Carlos Gomez
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 ILuvDaBush |
#361 | |||
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Posts: 1049 November 7, 2009 6:39 AM Chris Berman's Apprentice |
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 Invader3K |
#362 | |||
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Posts: 6785 November 7, 2009 6:43 AM |
I don't think anyone advocating that we should keep Cameron around has laid out a realistic way to keep him around and presumably pay him a a similar
salary, add better pitching, and not have the payroll increase significantly.
I have a blog! Revel in the mediocrity! The Mase
Place!
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Teatoe993 |
#363 | |||
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Posts: 481 November 7, 2009 8:21 AM |
I'm a little bit curious as to what effect playing in the Metrodome has had on Gomez's offense numbers. What does his road numbers look like? Will
playing in Milwaukee help utilize his speed even more?
Initially I really didn't like the trade but I am willing to give Melvin the benefit of the doubt and see how this fits in the entire offseason. Personally I probably would have taken the Michael Bowden offer instead if the rumors are true. The way I'm trying judge this trade is this: Defensively we have improved at both SS and CF. Offensively Hardy's 2009 will be replaced with Gomez. Gomez has less power but more speed. Hopefully he can get the OBP up a bit. Cameron's 2009 will be replaced with Escobar. Escobar has much less power but more speed as well. But hopefully some of the lost power will be made up at Catcher, 3B, LF & 2B. I also like that these guys are young with a ton of upside that hopefully will flourish in the years to come. Add in the salary we saved, we have a lot of room to acquire some good SP. Or use some of it to lock up Fielder and/or Gallardo long term. |
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The Truth |
#364 | |||
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Posts: 148 November 7, 2009 8:37 AM |
I've seen some advocating packaging Salome in a deal for pitching. I used to think that way, too, but now am not so sure about that having done more
research... a bat like Salome's, you gotta keep and figure out a way to keep in the Brewers organization. I know the Brewers are hyping Lucroy, and he is
very talented too, but I think you've gotta keep both, at least for now. Salome has the potential to be a .900 OPS guy in MLB and has a gun for an arm
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Baldkin |
#365 | |||
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Posts: 1284 November 7, 2009 8:39 AM |
2009
Home: .195 .242 .299 .541 Road: .261 .328 .373 .701 2008 Home: .278 .305 .384 .689 Road: .236 .287 .335 .622 His OBP is just terrible. He is Juan Pierre, with a better arm in CF. If Kendall is back, that will be 3 guys who are only singles hitters back to back to back in the lineup. I can already hear the "He's fast so he should lead off" crew making noise about both Escobar and Gomez. Ugh.
"And here comes Johnny Walker... I mean Johnny Estrada to the plate." -Bob Uecker 7/23/07
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splitterpfj |
#366 | |||
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Posts: 4160 November 7, 2009 8:47 AM Brewerfan.net Moderator |
Baldkin, it's interesting that you reference Juan Pierre. Remember a couple of years ago when this team aggressively pursued Pierre and Dave Roberts?
It seems as though the front office never gave up on adding that sort of player...and now they got him.
If you don't got Mojo Nixon, then your store could use some fixinnnnnnnnnn!
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bklynbrewcrew |
#367 | |||
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Posts: 1506 November 7, 2009 8:47 AM |
This is easily Melvins worst trade as Brewers GM. In one trade he has turned the teams biggest strength (offense) into a major question mark at best.
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burnzy24 |
#368 | |||
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Posts: 141 November 7, 2009 9:04 AM |
bklynbrewcrew wrote:By doing what? Giving up a shortstop that hit so terribly that he was sent to the minors in August and a 37 year old CF who hit .250 last year and .243 the year before that? Give Gomez or Gerut regular playing time and I am pretty confident that they will combine to hit .250, and if they don't at least they aren't making the salary that Cameron would be. |
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Mike |
CF Options | #369 | ||
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Posts: 70 November 7, 2009 9:05 AM |
Don't despair guys. There has to be more behind this move. My guess is either Gomez, Cain, Schafer and/or Gerut gets moved in a package deal for a Starting
Pitcher.
I'll play 3B, 1B or LF. Anywhere but Philadelphia - Dick Allen -Source Sporting News April 1970 |
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lukevan |
#370 | |||
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Posts: 1239 November 7, 2009 9:09 AM |
bklynbrewcrew wrote: By replacing Cameron with Gomez/Gerut? Escobar will have no problem being as valuable on offense as Hardy was last season, so how does that take us from 3rd best offense in the NL to a "major question mark"? I'd really like to see you engage the discussion instead of firing off snippets of negativity to no end. IMO, we will be better offensively at 2B, RF & C this year, with a dropoff in CF & maybe 3B.
[Only those who accept
Will find that acceptance in return - Dredg ] |
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rluzinski |
#371 | |||
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Posts: 16835 November 7, 2009 9:13 AM |
Can we please stop suggesting the trade had to be good because he trades someone who spent time in the minors for a starter? That's just a lazy, weak
argument. Can we also stop suggesting that Hardy will not rebound because, well Hall didn't?
After looking at this trade further, it's probably a fairly even trade over the course of both player's contracts. In other words, Hardy has the same net value (projected production - salary) in two years that Gomez is in 4. Gomez probably projects to be average around 2011 or 2012. It's hard to get very excited over such a deal, if you think the Brewer's window of opportunity is over the next 2 years. Escobar and Gomez are going to need some time. |
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brewjihad |
#372 | |||
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Posts: 373 November 7, 2009 9:16 AM |
Anyone else bothered by this?
http://www.freep.com/article/20091106/SPORTS02/91106058/1050/rss15 |
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RobertR |
#373 | |||
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Posts: 5023 November 7, 2009 9:25 AM Brewerfan.net Moderator |
Just because, splits by position.
C .242/.331/.317 1B .299/.412/.602 2B .303/.377/.474 (I had no idea that cumulatively the Brewers got so much out of 2B. They'll have a tough time matching that.) 3B .267/.330/.439 SS .247/.306/.355 (IMO, Escobar is no lock to be significantly better than that line) LF .309/.373/.530 CF .249/.329/.432 RF .270/.340/.425 I think of most concern is the hits they're taking to their OBP, which will mean less ABs for Fielder and Braun. Especially since they got an unexpectedly good year from Counsell which helped deal with the issues at 2B and SS. It's hard to see room for major improvement. Yeah, IF they could upgrade catcher that would help, but that doesn't appear all that likely. OTOH, Fielder could completely offset any gains at C by simply putting up a .950 OPS. The team, as presently constructed, is totally reliant on Fielder and Braun. Robert
``In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love--they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.'' -Orson Welles as Harry Lime in THE THIRD MAN
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TCSM |
#374 | |||
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Posts: 318 November 7, 2009 9:28 AM |
Brewj I'm not sure why anyone would or should be bothered by this. A GM has enough skills to understand what is possible via trade and what isn't. With
that said, if Melvin doesn't see anyone intriguing on the Tigers why should he even contact them? It's not like there is a written rule stating a GM
must contact every other GM before a trade goes through.
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MJLiverock |
#375 | |||
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Posts: 595 November 7, 2009 9:30 AM |
As more time has passed and I have let the rants flow against this trade I am willing to give it a shot but I am still very skeptical. Gomez is a young cheap
toolsy player but I fear he is just that, toolsy with no actual on the field results. His only hope is to get that OBP north of .350 so he can bat lead off and
become what Juan Pierre was early in his Marlins career. It may take a few years for him to reach it at which time LoCain may be the exact same player so maybe
one can go in another trade.
The hit this team is taking on OBP will have to be made by hoping Weeks, coming off an injury can match Lopez's remarkable Brewer stats at 2B which will still only be a wash there. Catching will have to improve and RF will need improvement. Third base production was decent and I can't expect big improvements there from what McGehee did or what a full basically rookie season of Gamel would be. So I guess I see catching and RF as keys to next year's offense. The team can't afford to become Braun/Fielder and a bunch of slap hitting no OBP guys who fail to get on base, turn the line up over for the 2 big gues to get AB's or drive people in. I still fear what Melvin is going to do with the money for pitching. Trading for pitching seemed the only route since there isn't much on the free agent market but maybe he can take on some team's bad contract or overpaid pitcher for a couple years with this money freed up for 2010 and Suppan's money in 2011. They have just given up one of their trade chips that could have been packaged for more than a faster Tony Gwynn, Jr. The idea that they needed this money to sign Mulder or Davis or Washburn seems pretty weak to me. Mulder is going to sign for next to nothing on a minor league deal somewhere if he plays again at all, I don't know why they need to free up space for someone like him. I have seen Mulder's name on the thread a few times and really don't get the idea he will be much of help. Cheap enough he is worth a risk on a minor league deal but any production would be gravy and not something I would want to count on. I saw the same thing last year; posts about how Capuano was going to come back in mid season and be just old Cappy. It just doesn't work out that way, aging pitchers coming off major are surgery rarely if ever return to their peak performance let alone only 12-18 months after surgery. Davis and Washburn better not be the 2 pitching "gets" that come from this as the team already has enough aging back of the rotation sof tossers. I'll root for Gomez like any one but I really hope he improves his OBP and Macha somehow changes his tune about young players and the running game if he wants to fully utilize Gomez and Escobar. I think the team may as well admit 2010 is a rebuilding year or at least fans should expect that is what it is with all the potential youth in the field, especially if LuCroy or Salome are catching with Escobar, Gomez, Gamel, and a recovering Weeks are in the lineup daily.
Last Edited By: MJLiverock November 7, 2009 9:45 AM.
Edited 1 time.
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MJLiverock |
#376 | |||
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Posts: 596 November 7, 2009 9:59 AM |
TCSM wrote:I think this stems from the surprise Melvin pulled the trigger so quickly. It was only 2 days after the WS ended so it wasn't like as some said Hardy was shopped to every team and no one wanted him or no one was interested in a package of Hardy with Gamel/McGehee, or Salome/LuCroy, etc. Melvin even admits he didn't even talk to teams who needed a shortstop. People tend to forget in negotiations that the other side has pressure to make a deal as well. Plenty of people have pointed out that since everyone knew Melvin "had" to trade Hardy they weren't going to offer much. That is a poor idea if your team needs a SS. If you are just trying to acquire an extra part cheap, sure throw low ball offers out, but if you are looking to improve your SS position you have to try and get the best player you can before someone else takes your targeted player. I dont' know offhand what other SS are out there but by trying to go as cheap as possible means a team lets someone else get the player they want instead of you, and the next thing you know you are stuck in the same spot or worse. Finally, GMs make bad trades all the time, they aren't infallable so arguing that he's a GM so he made the best deal or this was the only option may or not be the whole reality. (not trying to pick on you here, I saw this a few times in the thread, i.e. GMs know what is best) Especially if he admits he didn't talk to every team and it was only 2 days into the 4 month window of deal making. |
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Mass Haas |
#377 | |||
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Posts: 20962 November 7, 2009 10:22 AM Minor League Link Reporter |
Apparently Doug re-acquired Alex Sanchez.
There actually should be a bit more animosity towards a now-Twins shortstop for costing the organization so much in value. I don't know what happened to J.J. on the flight from Maryvale to Milwaukee the first week of April, but I won't miss the 2009 version of him. Otherwise, thanks for the nice run, J.J. |
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brewizard |
#378 | |||
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Posts: 956 November 7, 2009 10:22 AM |
It's hard to get very excited over such a deal, if you think the Brewer's window of opportunity is over the next 2 years. Escobar and Gomez are going to need some time. That's precisely why this season was so painful and precisely why I ranted off the rails over this whole Hardy thing. Unless Melvin can find some pitching somewhere, something he's not always been great at, the window seems shut. But maybe Weeks will have a good year... |
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schmidty |
#379 | |||
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Posts: 12 November 7, 2009 10:24 AM |
I see you all talking about signing a free agent for Catcher or starting Lucroy or Salome. But what ever happened to Mike Rivera?
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RobertR |
#380 | |||
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Posts: 5024 November 7, 2009 10:28 AM Brewerfan.net Moderator |
I don't necessarily fault Melvin for not talking to the Tigers, but by the same token, it displays a lack of creativity. Three team trades aren't that
rare when you don't quite match up. Especially since you're so early in the offseason that many teams have holes to fill.
Then again, it wouldn't be exactly surprising if a couple of assistants for the Tigers and Brewers talked and couldn't find common ground, before it went any higher. Robert
``In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love--they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.'' -Orson Welles as Harry Lime in THE THIRD MAN
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